I think he will! blog, that is, as there was another fab trip out this week to a waterworks, and also various other bits and pieces.
me, i have been migrainous and grumpy. really not sleeping properly! AMongst all the exciting trips HE goes on, lots of maths, fair bit of science, music, reading etc etc. actually, i am going to digress. i think i read somewhere that penny whatsit of dcsf independent schools said one of the advantages of us being forcibly registered was that we may avail ourselves of school trips.
1. what, with schools?? no thankyou
2. we already do ‘school trips’, but without schools, without crocodiles, in small groups with plenty of adults getting loads more value.
3. does anyone at the dcsf actually have any idea about home education ‘for real’?
back again from minor rantlet!
anyway, back from work earlier today, and caught SB doing her galore park science, which was fun. we got out various rocks – prev birthday presents, picked up etc and did the compare and contrast thing, which was kinda similar to our identify the chemical previously. she got really into it! maths, clarinet, english also happily done.
As blog readers will know, in the summer SB chose to revisit the idea of timetables so she knew what there was, we minimised and ameliorated the unmanageable, and had a list of about 50 things for her to choose 20 from a week – most of the 15-20 mins, or as long as she fancied. [this includes all her favourite things such as reading books, watching fact dvd, art, craft, baking, yoga , maths, english, science, music practice and french, plus whatever! ]this has been going really well. so well, that she wanted some rewards thrown on top! my nephew gets a mars bar for doing something well at school in the week. we hummed and ha-ed, and decided doing 30 things was our mars bar equivalent. she has done this every week for the last month. [why do i feel slightly soiled by this bribery? it was def not initiated by us - effectively it is 'normals' rather than school at home?]
today, bb finally cottoned on to the fact that she was being done out of a sweet!! massively massive tantrum, and with calming her down, but not making light of the work sb has put in to ‘achieve’ hers. so i thought 5 ‘things’ for a chupa chup, and 10 for an equivalent sweet [50p] to sb. cue massive more wials that she couldn’t do 10 and she needed a big sweet. [cue parent v tightly holding onto temper, as feeling cornered in the wrong place on the wrong foot]. Anyway, she now has a list too, where 5 is almost guarenteed, and 10 with the minimum of effort. so both got a sweet.
now, this is working really well for sb, in the way she can see a spread of what there is, chooses what she fancies, according to mood, time avail etc, and actually although i have asked for 3 music practices and maths a week is otherwise entirely hers to sort out and organise, and there are no ‘penalties’ for not doing the 3 i suggested – i only pointed out it lets her move forward, and she has noticed that if she does or more, she gets on more easily. no box other than above is stipulated as more valuable for her learning, and that above is only done so in a rational way. so her gluing window is equally valued to french for example. And I am really proud of the way SB looks, chooses, gets on with things and enjoys her home ed. But i guess today, with bb’s outburst, i wondered what juggernaut was on the loose! going to make sure sb is the only foot on the accelerator, and that i make sure occasionally that a brake is suggested! I really don’t want her to be confined by lists and expectation! but i guess, it is things she loves, we have always done them. hmmm.
BB had such a major strop, actually, that she didn’t go to football, too busy drumming on the floor with hands and feet. this too will pass, i am sure. But she did do some piano, read a few words and did some before the code with me, determined to get her 50p of sweets.
SB and I played games, hugged and then she finished her mecchano radio controlled car, which she is v v proud of. [thats on the list as 'making things']
The argument that seems to be often put forward against rewards or praise is that the child will come to feel that s/he is only loved because of what s/he can do. Did you ever feel like that? I know I never did – even when my dad *said* things like, “You know I only love you this much because you can do sums” I didn’t believe him. I have always been perfectly content that my parents love(d) me simply because I am their wonderful daughter. And so I have absolutely no patience with that argument. Also, if I felt like Chris only loved me because of how clean I keep the house, or for the meals I cook, etc, well, then I’d be truly stuffed.
Tbh, I think with e.g. Gwenny perhaps, if we never praised her, she would decide it was because she wasn’t praiseworthy.
I keep starting to rant and then deleting it. Suffice it to say that in this area of life and child-raising, as in most others, I don’t believe there’s a one-size-fits-all optimum.
Buy them a Mars bar every day for being their marvellous selves until they are completely sick of them
no, i guess i didn’t, but i do very much like external praise still… SB has some similarities in temperament to Gwenny, and getting the praise thing right is sometimes diff to do!
oh, and i don’t think bb would *ever* get sick of mars bars…
I don’t see a problem at all with reward systems like this in any case. I do it to myself! (clean the bathroom then 15 mins on facebook or whatever!), and we all work for money, don’t we?
Our kids have all sorts of different reward systems in place for various things, and they know full well that they’re not there to communicate love (which is unconditional), they’re there to help teach them discipline in certain areas of their lives. And that’s a Good Thing, I think.
thanks sarah, beginning to breathe a bit about it!
Ah well, have already given you my thoughts – i often feel that if a whim is indulged then it gets worked through- less to be in therapy about later!
We did 20ps for a while, we don’t any more because it faded. Not sure where the change occurred but it did. Doing well became an internal thing.
Am not a Alfie Kohn fan – we’re all different and children and adults need different things at different times – following their lead and adapting to individuals needs seems a far better plan. My children like to know i have listened and looked and paid attention and you know, what do you say? “yes but i refuse to comment”? Most people would take that as a negative criticism. I’ve gone for honest praise coupled with constructive criticism and some reward for effort more than success.
Really don’t think this makes you a bad person!
Being moderated!!!! Outrage!
funny you know, because this discussion has come up in 2 other places this week. And it really does come down to the fact that actually, we all need recognition/reward/praise whatever you want to call it. I used to snort in derision about kids being given “I was very good today” stickers but actually, I’ve had to eat humble pie on that one because actually, there is a little madam in this household who has positively begged for shiny stickers…. So, yes, “Punishment by rewards” be damned, let them earn their sweeties!!!!! (but give them random ones sometimes just for being wonderful/gorgeous/cuddly/smiley…)
think the montessori way of saying thank you for showing me is one way of doing recognition without providing external judgement, and is sometimes a valid approach.
“thank you for showing me”??? If an adult friend showed me something they had produced and I said “thank you for showing me”, I can’t imagine that that would go down well. All this “I can see you have really put a lot of effort into this” by itself just seems so unemotional and cold-fish-like. I can’t parent like that.
think it very much depends on the context. It works well in a classroom environment, not sure it’s so good where there is an emotional attachment.
The idea is not to try to interfere with intrinsic motivation.
Well. Taking yesterday as an example, i think i agree with both sides to some extent. Fran worked really hard and didn’t really get the results she deserved because on the day it didn’t go as it could have. I can’t imagine that anything other than “you did really well and put masses of effort in and enjoyed and tried your hardest and kept smiling even when it wasn’t going your way” would really have done the trick.
I can’t imagine “thank you for inviting us to watch” would have soothed the bruise and would have made me feel rubbish but on the other hand i do actually believe in effort more than results and think that praise for that is well worth it. And then, i wouldn’t have patronised her by telling her she was brilliant and the judges were all wrong either.
That said, there was a dad stood next to me who had promised his daughter a dsi if she got a medal. Not sure i really thought i would have done that either – it smacked too much of “please me” although it equally might not have been (who am i to judge?!) – the joy of the competition was in doing her best for Fran, not getting something other than the feel of that for itself.
Which is not to say i disagree with the mars bar – we do all work to goals and children don’t always have the mechanisms always for providing it. If she successfully negotiated it and both sides agree it is a fair price, why not?
I’m definitely philosophically opposed to rewards and punishments and would favour intrinsic reward and internal satisfaction everytime. However, as Alison said there is no one size fits all and frankly I’m biased to think everything my kids do is wonderful anyway so they certainly get praised. I don’t like sticker charts, reward schemes or things like that but again I’d probably be willing to revise that stance if one of my children suddenly started asking for them.
I would have an issue with rewarding with sweets because I do think that is setting up an unhealthy relationship with things which are bad for you. D and S certainly get their share of junk and chocolate but always because they’ve asked for it while we’re someone selling it, I happen to have enough money to buy it at the time and they haven’t already had loads of sweet stuff that day, never as a reward for ‘being good’. I think loads of adults have massive food issues as a result of treating ourselves for ‘being good’ with something bad for us.
I don’t necessarily agree with all of us work for money or we are all goal driven too and both of those ideas are ones we talk about lots here because I do believe we can unpick them further and find other ways of living.
But, all that said, clearly all of this is working wonders for SB. She is acheiving what she sets out to do, getting satisfaction in seeing her tick boxes filled up and getting a mars bar into the bargain. It is being driven by and requested by her so if she is already able to identify her motivator, set her own goals and achieve them then that is all good.